Before I ask your opinion I wanted to show you this, because the question concerns this motif and its construction...
#7/100 Cebelia #20 Free Pattern: Mark Myers: Tatman
Here’s the thing. I recently had an interesting conversation about frontside/backside tatting with another tatter. I wanted to know if she used this technique, as I have employed it since the first few months of picking up a shuttle.
It was my impression, as a newbie tatter that if you were a committed tatter, striving for perfection (and who among us isn’t one or either of these?) you would use the fs/bs technique. Otherwise your work would not be considered “up to par.”
Even after the T.A.T. course, where they referred to both - I do not remember any emphasis on one or the other, nor any judgmental attitude - I came away thinking I had best stick with this route.
So, here I am almost four years later, and I decided I would tat a motif using ‘regular’ tatting, have a look at it and also monitor how I felt when I was tatting.
It was so relaxing and I found I was not half as anxious or tight-fisted as I can be when I tat fs/bs.
Also I realize that a lot of my un-tatting has been to correct a stitch or two wayyy back there that was tatted on the wrong side. A LOT of un-tatting....
So, now you see my dilemma.
This tatting topic has been around for years, I know, but I thought I would re-visit the conversation as some of you out there might not have been involved in the last go-around.
What do you do? Why? Thoughts?
The snowflake motif came out beautifully.
ReplyDeleteI use fs/bs tatting exclusively except in very rare cases just because I happen to like the way tatting looks that way. You don't see much difference in this motif because there aren't any free picots but that's where I really notice the difference. I don't think it's wrong to do it the other way, I just like the look better when I tat. It would probably be best to do an entire piece the same way but you might find it interesting to do something simple with picots one way and then one the other to see which you like best then continue on that way.
Happy tatting!
Personally I can see absolutely no point to front-side/back-side tatting. Who looks at the individual stitches?? It's the overall design, the colours etc that matter. Why make life difficult? Or do I just sound like a slob?
ReplyDeleteJane, you make me laugh! Everyone seems to have her own particular use or non-use for the technique. We are all different not only as people, but as tatters as well. Vive la difference!
DeleteFox : )
Sometimes it depends upon the piece that I am working on as to whether or not I do the fs/bs tatting method. More often than not I will use this method for items that I want to give away or now in the process of selling. When I am testing out a pattern though, I will just tat to get the hang of the pattern. There is really no wrong or right way to tat a piece, just your preferences or how picky you are about directional tatting.
ReplyDeleteTatting should be fun and relaxing most of the time.
Arial - Tatting Faerie
I didn't try fs /bs so far, because the tatters I met mainly don't care and as I am mainly a selfmade tatter, I wasn't confrontated with it. Except one tatter who did a master class in tatting, told that they looked at each knot with magnifying glasses. Regarding doilies I regocnized, that tatters like different looks of the tatting, the side in which the knots are more upcoming or more flat. I regognizes some tatters who are pedantically refering to fs/s and those even don't accept needle tatting as tatting. I didn't find fs/bs in basic tatting books, or do you know one who explains it as main way?
ReplyDeleteFrontside/backside. Always. I adopted the technique so early on that it is completely automatic, even in complex patterning with thrown off rings on the backside. Never think about it. In fact, it is more likely that I ascertain whether I am on the front or the back by the stitch I have just made, than by looking at the work. The fingers just know, which frees my mind to follow the path of the pattern.
ReplyDeleteHi, there C.T.!
DeleteI was almost positive that I would hear from you as it was because of our initial conversations that I decided I would tat fs/bs exclusively, which I have done ever since!
I had to concentrate NOT to do this in this motif, as I just automatically do it, but as i stated in the post, I often slip up and make mistakes. I get into the zone and go so far as to completely zone out!
It is very easy to “read” where I am at with fs/bs/ stitches - if they are correct, that is - and I find it a bit confusing not to have that particular aid.
However, it was a very lovely tat in this case where I did not have to concentrate on all the the SCMRs.
Hope you are doing well. Good to hear from you. Thanks for the comment.
Fox : )
I wish that I could be more relaxed about my tatting. Not that I carry tension in my body: it is more of a mental tension - ever vigilant to avoid the slightest thread gap, rolling final ds, or misaligned stitch cap, let alone color blips! With all that going on, who has time to worry about front and back? Perhaps it was a mistake to undertake T.A.T. so early in our tatting adventure. We should have learned to have fun in the medium before embarking on the relentless pursuit of perfection.
DeleteThis year has been pretty rocky, so far. Major hassles on all fronts. One of the first to sign up for Shuttlebirds, I was not able to attend (again). Lots of lovely lace has emerged from the shuttles - just haven't had it in me to blog about it.
The Myers motif is very pretty.
Me too! I have this perfection thing that I will never shake - Type A personality... So, I am imprinted. Though I was able to tat regularly on the Myers motif, the next one I have tackled - cluny design - is all fs/bs...I can’t help it! I am ruined!
DeleteThanks for your comments. Sorry you could not attend Shuttlebirds.
I would lov to see what you have been tatting.
Fox
I do a bit of both. I personally don't think fs/bs is important unless you're going to use/see the finished piece the 'front side upwards' all the time. If you sew it onto something or mount it then perhaps there's a valid 'reason' for working that way. If it's a doily or something that's given to somebody who will never realise there's a 'right side' to the piece then what's the point? For a mobile/suncatcher/snowflake then there's no point either. This might sound 'odd' from me as I tend to write patterns so that they can easily be worked fs/bs. There again - I'm an odd sorta person, eh? So, no, I don't think it's important at all and I've never heard of a piece of tatting being judged 'bad' because it isn't worked fs/bs. I'm sure the early tatters didn't consider this at all!!!!
ReplyDeleteHi Jane!
DeleteThat's a valid point about mobile or 3-D items: distributing the pearl bumps on both sides of the piece is actually more balanced, and I do think about that when working this type of motif. The fingers are reluctant to comply. In fact, I've just set myself up for double the work by deciding that an edging in size 80 really does need to be equally presentable from both front and back, so am working it twice, joined at the tips of the uppermost picots, so it can be slipped over the edge of the fabric and sewn down. Trust me to take a really basic edging and make it complicated! :-)
Of all the opinion I read here, I am with Jane on most things, except the "I'm an odd sorta person" bit. I tat to please myself first because tatting is a way for me to relax and release bottled-up tension. I can't add more pressure to it by having to worry about the fs/bs issues.
DeleteBut I do pay attention when I want to make joins. I make sure that the part that I am joining to is of the same side. As, my tatting is always the front side, I make sure that the ring/chain that I am joining to is also the front side.
I have done fs/bs a few times, but I don't see the point. I don't know anybody that sticks their nose down on the tatting and has an "ah-ha" moment when I don't do it. Part of the reason I don't do it is because I don't WANT there to be a front side and back side. That's one of the things that I like -- no matter which way I put down a piece it's ALWAYS right side up! Having said that -- when I did Yarnplayer's Jubiloso doily I did it all fs/bs because the Celtic parts seemed to me to have a front and a back side. There -- I guess it depends on what I'm doing and why I'm doing it.
ReplyDeleteI don't do fs/bs tatting. I'm perfectly capable, but as I give away most of my tatting to non-tatters, who cares? I'm not that picky. I tat for my own pleasure, and worrying about fs/bs tatting cuts into that pleasure. Sooo - I don't do it!
ReplyDeleteNow Fox what a question you have decided to stir us up with, Front back they can be the same so who will know if it's the back of front. Using white with colours is the main problem and no matter how much you do fs/bs some work does sho the dark thread if you are using s light one with it.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest I don't think it really matters, if one blip shows well it shows, I don't think anyone will say its bad work or could have been made better, sometimes it just happens and you don't always see it in night light.
I never heard of fs/bs until about 16 months ago. I had just done a bunch of little motifs because I was on retreat with the 7th graders and then that weekend TCT met for our monthly thing. There was a new person there and she was a "serious" tatter. I delightedly trotted out my little motifs to share. She took one look and said something along the lines of how much nicer they would like fs/bs. sheesh. My little happiness balloon deflated.
ReplyDeleteSo I tried it for a while and while I can see a difference if I peer closely, it just doesn't make enough of a difference. I have never had anyone give back a tatted gift and say "if only it were fs/bs". : ) It seems to me a matter of opinion though and what makes you happy. I LOVE tatting, I find it relaxing - I felt sad when I read that you felt anxious when tatting. Your work is so lovely, I would love to hear that it brings you joy!
Type A personality. i revel in my neurotic striving for perfection and get a lot of satisfaction out of myself-imposed methods... I LOVE tatting!
DeleteFox : ))
Michelle, that's awful! And I think the serious tatter should keep her joy- removing opinions to herself! Also I've just looked at your blog and your work is lovely.
DeleteI must admit, being a lone tatter and only ever seeing people's work online and not in real life, I'm nt even sure what fs/bs tatting is. I usually decide that the side that looks best after the ends are sewn in is the front. I'm squinting at my work now and I'm really not that sure I can tell the difference between one side and another. I'll read up and become informed before I decide if I should be paranoid :) interesting discussions though. (thanks Fox)
Hi, ocassionalcrafter,
DeleteThanks for joining in!
I too am a lone tatter. I had never even met another tatter in the world beyond Internet Tat-land, when I learned about fs/bs tatting.
There is loads of information online, if you just google the terms -photos and diagrams galore. That is pretty much where I learned and then came to a decision as to whether I would follow that method or not. Seems to work for me and I notice after this experiment that I cannot readily break this ingrained habit .
Ends? Badly sewn in ends can ruin a piece no matter how brilliantly - fs/bs or traditionally - it is tatted!
Fox : )
I myself don't even think about it when I tat, the only thing I do insist on, is all my picot joins are on the same side, that way, regardless of front side back side, I can press and it looks consistent. I normally prefer to show the side without the picot joins showing, in-case I am using different colors of thread, then you don't have little blips of thread bursting out. Other than that, I don't think of any of the fs/bs issue, I concentrate on tight foundation thread and even consistency in my double stitches. I find I have a lot less untatting that way.
ReplyDeleteJust my 2 pennies worth :)
I do fs/bs exclusively, it is so automatic with me, that I don't even think about it when I wrap my hand for a chain, I start with the 2nd half. why do it tat that way? because, I like the look of the picots on the front side being between the stitches, to me the little "legs" showing in the picots on the back side are un-tidy. I know, a little ridged. in doing the Tischband, because the motif is mainly chains, I have tatted the chains all from the back side. We both did the TearDrop doily a couple weeks ago, and the Thrown off ring was tatted from the back because it was done with the chain shuttle.
ReplyDeletedon't know if this answered your question. but this works for me.
Well, in my own work I consider which side I like better, and if there's a bead only on the front, well, obviously that's the front, but I don't get all freaky over it, life is too short.
ReplyDeleteVery nice motif!! :)
ReplyDeleteYour comments are wonderful. It is interesting to hear about everyone’s different take on this issue. Thank you for submitting your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteFox : ))
Victorian sets and beads are really the only time I worry about it. I make sure they face the same side. Otherwise I don't even worry about it. I think tatting is reversible and its part of why I like it. Unless we're going to start allowing cut knots on the backside and to carry our thread to the next round. To get out of hiding ends I would happily start front/back side tatting.
ReplyDeleteI have tried fsbs tatting, and I find it very confusing. I don't want tatting to be a chore, so I just tat, and I'm very happy!
ReplyDeleteGreat topic of mine, I use fs/bs tatting. Why you ask, because it is more professional looking in my perfectionist eyes, and when you turn the piece over you have a different look so wether the person wants to use either side it looks all the same. Not like when you do traditional tatting. If you put a traditional tatting piece along side of a fs/bs tatted piece you will see what I mean. I can do Riego tatting, traditional tatting and fs/bs tatting. I learned all 3 techniques within months of each other and stuck with fs/bs tatting because it looks the best and that has been since 1999, which is 14 years ago.
ReplyDeleteI use both depending upon the project and the look I want for it. It is nice to have the option, but I don't feel compelled to use a particular technique even if the designer has written it in.
ReplyDeleteFS/BS here. I read about it online when I had only been tatting for a few months and it did three things for me:
ReplyDelete1. It helped me to *finally* start understand the way the threads were moving.
2. It helped me keep track of work reversals.
3. It filled in that annoying space at the bottom of a picot that had driven me crazy from the first time I tatted. {e:laugh} (Some say "anal retentive", but I prefer quirky. LOL.)
The only time it makes me a little crazy is when there's a ring that's "back-side". I'm so used to rings consisting of DS and chains of SD that it just feels funny. LOL. ;-)
♥,
Stephanie Grace
Stephanie Grace,
Delete‘Quirky’ is good! Love it! Being a supreme A.R. I completely relate to all your thoughts here!
Fox ; ))
Hi Stephanie,
DeleteSince this discussion has become quite animated, I'm going toss out another thought: my preference is to make rings on the back side, and I welcome it when the pattern leads that direction. Why? In my ongoing quest to stop any rolling toward the back of the final ds in a ring, I have adopted the methodology proposed by Elizabeth a couple of years ago. For front side rings, I add an additional second half stitch prior to closing. This locks the last ds in place and effectively prevents it rolling because the second half stitch rolls in its stead. On the backside, I drop the shuttle through the ring from back to front prior to closing, but do not add any additional half stitches. So, with this method, backside rings are actually simpler in execution than front side ones.
There are so many different ways to accomplish the desired effect in tatting. It is fun to try them all, and adopt what works for you.
Fox,
DeleteDid my horrible grammar/ typos make you twitch as much as I did? I really need to learn to read things before I send them, but I always just assume that my eyes would have caught the mistake while I was typing... LOL. Or, ya know, the evil red line would have appeared and made me fix it! >.< Yes, "quirky"... it just sounds so much happier! People are much more likely to jump on board when it sounds like a happy thing, right? LOL. ;-)
♥,
Stephanie Grace
Suzanne,
First off, your shawls are AMAZING!!! I drooled... Still am (you owe me a new keyboard if this continues...)! Anywho... That's definitely thought-provoking! I only start shuttle tatting a few months ago and am still adapting and finding out what's comfortable for me. I'm sure that I'll pick your response apart and try it, but any chance you have any visual examples? I think I'm still at that stage with the shuttle(s) that I can read everything and interpret it just fine, but I don't have the confidence to believe that I'm right. I always think I'm going to mess up and throw something and, ya know, my poor husband will end up with a shuttle in his eye because I don't even think about the direction! LOL. Or maybe a pattern example? I'm still trying to learn to make things neat, but I learned with the needle that the more I learn while learning, the better my end result will be ... I think. :-)
♥,
Stephanie Grace
Not my shawls...I'm not sure that I ever posted anything at the Lace Shawl KAL; though I have knit quite a few lace shawls. If you are on Ravelry, look me up. My 'handle' there is Magpie.
DeleteIn response to a question that Krystle tossed out, I wrote a blog post a couple of years ago about different methods of finishing and closing a ring. Unfortunately, dropping the shuttle from back to front on the backside was not covered in that discussion (hadn't played with that yet). This is all really nit-picky stuff that is simply not visible to anyone who isn't looking for it. The methods I use are a by-product of being way too particular about how each ring looks under close scrutiny. I'm actively trying to get over it! Life is too short.
Here is the link to the discussion: http://morduededentelle.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/post-the-shuttle-add-a-half-stitch-or-both/
I admit I do not know how fs/bs tatting is done, so I tat to my own pleasure and oblivious to the rest. I'm sure that there are advantages to it and it will look much prettier, perhaps one day I will try it.
ReplyDeleteI love all the different opinions here! Tatters rock!
ReplyDeleteFox : ))
FS/BS tatting? What's that?! Ok, you get it, Fox. :)
ReplyDeleteHaha! It all smells the same, I'm sure... (Or I just said something incredibly inappropriate that will only make a few people crack a smile).
Delete♥,
Stephanie Grace
I think there is no right and wrong here. I like to do fs/bs and it mostly comes naturally to me, but honestly, if it's more than a foot or two away, I can't tell which way is up. Like Jane said, also consider where the tatting will go. A bookmark can be stuck in the book either way up.
ReplyDeleteI always do FS/BS, and I always have. I think that if you are using a single color that it might not be as important, but since I almost always use variegated thread, the side that will not have "blips" of color is the front.
ReplyDeleteI'm by no means a professional, but I haven't bothered to learn fs/bs yet. Maybe someday. But like a few other people have mentioned, 1.)Tatting is a way for me to relax, so I just tat away. 2.)99% of the people who receive my tatting are not tatters, & couldn't tell the difference if I showed it to them.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I like to be able to throw a mat on a shelf or table & it be "right side up", no matter which side is showing :)
Call me lazy if you want (I'm sure that's also a part of it! :)
I always use FS/BS because I virtually always use variegated thread. If you don't do FS/BS, you get lots of blips of color not where you want them. I also almost always use a lark's head join rather than just the F2B or B2F join unless I am joining a solid color.
ReplyDeleteI'm a total tatting newbie. I've only made a few pieces, and only with one shuttle. I've never heard of F/S B/S before and am unsure of what it even refers to. Anyone willing to post a link so I can learn more? Thanks! :)
ReplyDeleteLaurie, there is so much info all over InTatters, which I suggest you join. The community is helpful and there is a lot of instruction and info that will help you! Go there now!
Deletehttp://www.intatters.com/content.php
Fox